part one:
This video is ok at explaining the LTV, but I’m not a huge fan of it anymore. I am planning a newer one on the same topic that will hopefully resolve some of the issues I have with my arguments and presentation in this video.
part two:
We will start this explanation of the labor theory of value with an analogy from outside the sphere of economics.
A teenage boy is arguing with his mother about borrowing the car. A shrink watches their interaction and he doesn’t really pay attention to the specifics of the argument. To the shrink it isn’t important if the boy did his chores, or whether the mother promised him he could borrow the car…. The shrink sees all these unconscious motivations at play: a struggle over control, the son wanting to leave the nest but not, maybe there’s a good ole oedipal complex or something. These motives are the motor and context of the entire interaction-even though they don’t enter into the surface substance of the interaction which are just words about cars and chores. The specific words of the conversation are important if we want to know about cars and chores. But if we want to know about their relationship, their egos, their behavior… then we have to ask deeper questions that penetrate beneath the surface froth of words.
Similarly, the substance of bourgeois theory, supply and demand, is important for understanding some things about the economy: price fluctuations, inflation, etc. But if we want to understand deeper issues about the economy we need other tools that are able to pierce through this surface substance to the underlying meanings.
That is what the labor theory of value is all about.
All societies coordinate human labor in order to produce things. The total social product is divided about society. The organization of this production and distribution is the subject of economics.
When societies began producing a surplus of this social product a new aspect of distribution and production entered the equation: who controls the surplus?
Under feudalism the social surplus was extracted from peasants by landlords.
In slavery the social surplus is extracted from slaves by slave owners.
In both of these examples the economic act in which the surplus is passed from worker to exploiter is easy to see. Under feudalism the peasants gathered up a portion of all the food they had made and physically took it over to the landlords house and gave it to him.
Under slavery a slave works all day harvesting cane or cotton or diamonds and then watches the slaver owner take away all of those goods at the end of the day without compensating them.
In both types of society it is clear to all involved that human labor is producing these goods and that it is the products of labor that are being appropriated by the dominant class.
Under capitalism the process of exchange makes it harder to see the passing of the surplus from exploited to exploiter. But it’s still there. Workers are still producing the entire social product and another class, this time the capitalist class, is taking the surplus from them, selling it back to them and getting rich off it.
But what we see is money. We work and we are paid money for it. The capitalist sells the commodities we made and he gets money for it. We don’t see the exploitation- but it’s still there, albeit in a different form. (Workers aren’t forced to work for a slave owner or pay a tax to a feudal landlord. But they are compelled by necessity to eek out a living in a capitalist society. Most of the time this means selling your labor to a capitalist.)
In this way. money- or the process of exchanging goods and services in a “free” market- obscures the underlying reality that what is really going on at a basic, societal level is that a dominant class is extracting the social surplus from a subordinate class.
This is basically what the labor theory of value is saying. When people make things in a capitalist society, it is the labor that goes into them that gives them their value. Though money obscures and distorts this underlying value, this collective human labor is still the basic driving force of our collective economic activity.
The concept that the labor that goes into a commodity is the underlying essence of its value has been around for awhile. It even predates Marx, though he really gives the theory new life. Economists going all the way back to Ben Franklin realized that this theory helped answer a perplexing question in economic theory: why do heterogeneous commodities exchange?
Explain: by heterogeneous, of course, I mean that commodities are really different from each other. They have different physical properties, different uses. Why is it that they can all be exchanged in the free market? What explains the ratios of their exchange? (why are some commodities worth more than others?)
The theory went on to postulate- all these commodities must be made up of a common substance, something that they all have to a greater or lesser degree, something that gives them value. This thing is their “embodied labor time”, that is, the amount of labor that went into creating them.
Thus a 2008 chevy corvette convertible with custom leather seats and a bose audio system is worth more than a dozen eggs. This is because it requires the combined labor of many people all working over a long period of time to make all the parts of a car and put them together. To get eggs you throw stale bread at chickens and. At todays price of 55 grand, it would take about 660,000 eggs to equal one 2008 chevy corvette convertible with custom leather seats and a bose audio system. That’s their exchange ratio. The labor theory of value helps us to explain their exchange ratio
Transformation problem:
Now, I’ve already said that the act of exchange (by which I mean the act of buying and selling commodities in the market via money) obscures the underlying labor value of commodities. Let’s explore this point further…
I’ll start by referring back to my opening example of a mother and son having an argument. Even though there may be all of these underlying psychological motives behind their conversation, the words they are using and the topic of the argument still have relevance. Though the topic may not have long term relevance to their relationship, right there, in the moment, in the present that topic and those words are important to them. As we move between these different perspectives, we see two distinct layers of meaning. Both are important.
So to with money and value. Though the labor value of a commodity may be the underlying substance to an economic interaction, it is the way this value is expressed through a money price that really effects the economic decisions people make. When you go to a store to buy something you want to know how much money it costs, not how much labor went into it. But the act of buying something with money implies the existence of value, whether or not you are aware of it.
Specific money prices are determined by supply and demand. I’ll assume that that concept is simple enough that I don’t need to explain it here. Money prices fluctuate- clothes and entertainment commodities come in and out of style, supplies of food temporarily change due to droughts, etc. But underneath this day to day fluctuation lies a general equilibrium price- a price related to the amount of labor embodied in commodities.
Money prices are mathematical, quantifiable, observable things. We see dollar signs hanging off of price tags and they have a real effect on us. Not so with labor value: We don’t see the people who make those commodities. Even if we could see them, quantifying the amount of labor time in a commodity is next to impossible: we’d have to figure out not just how much work went into a specific commodity in each stage of its making (and some commodities go through a lot of stages, through many firms, contain parts from all over the world, etc,) but also the labor behind each tool and machine used in the making of the commodity. (and divide the labor value of the machines by the amount of commodities produced over the life of the machine, etc.) It’s virtually impossible. (we could, however, measure the total # of hours worked by society, which is a better measure of labor time anyway, since value is a social concept.)
Though there have been countless attempts to quantify this theory, labor value will never be as quantifiable as price is. This is because labor value only really find its expression in money. It would be impossible to have a capitalist economy where goods were traded according to exact measurements of labor time. Capitalist economies require flexibility, and they require liquidity. Money provides this. (I hope to have a video on money at some point.) But in providing this flexibility money also deviates from being an exact measurement of labor time. It is, at best, an approximation.
A quick note on money: Money fundamentally acts as a measure of value. It represents work people have done. When you work you are paid money. You are more or less frugal with this money depending on how much of it you have and how hard it would be to get more of it. (You are more or less frugal depending on how much work you have been paid for and saved up and how easy it would be to make more money working.) The commodities you buy all cost money because someone had to be paid to make them. If a commodity didn’t take any labor to make it would be free. (this is what I mean when I say that the act of exchange “implies” labor value.)
But commodities are constantly fluctuating in price as capitalists find cheaper ways to make commodities, better ways to exploit workers, etc. The supply of money is changing too- money itself is a commodity related to labor time. It has a supply and a demand. Money is also called upon to perform other social functions other than measure value: it lubricates exchange, it can become credit, etc. So money is needed to be much more flexible- to be sensitive to rapid economic changes. We say, though its fundamental role in society is a measure of value, its relationship to this value is a loose one as supply and demand force it to fluctuate above and below the equilibrium values of embodied labor time.
Simplification problem:
Here’s another important angle: We said that commodities appear heterogeneous until we see that they have a common substance: labor. But isn’t labor heterogeneous? People work at different speeds, with different skills, with more or less competency. How can these heterogeneous acts be a common substance?
This question makes important the concept of “socially necessary labor time”. Just as in a capitalist society the process of exchange and competition tends to bring prices to a general equilibrium (gas or milk or CD’s -these prices are basically the same amount everywhere) so to the process of exchange and competition create a social average of how much labor it takes to complete a task. Remember- value is a concept that only makes sense from a macro level. It doesn’t matter if you go into work drunk and work really slow and sloppy at making cars. That doesn’t destroy value. The labor value of a car corresponds to the socially necessary time that it takes to make it. In this way we say that exchange exerts a homogenizing influence on labor.
This homogenizing influence is very strong in society. Capitalist want work to be standardized and reliable so that workers can be as productive as possible. Capitalists are constantly seeking ways to mechanize work in order to make it unskilled and uniform. Perhaps you can think of many examples of this in your own life… The service industry and the industrial sector are almost entirely made up of this uniform, low-skilled work. This increases the potential supply of labor (because anyone could do the job) thus driving down wages.
But how strong is this homogenizing influence? We still have a lot of skilled labor which fetches a much higher price than unskilled labor. And we have union jobs which pay better than non-union jobs even though both groups of workers may do the same type of work. We could dismiss this as supply and demand casting its usual distorting influence over the law of value. And we would be justified to some degree. But we also might say that the need for skilled labor in society is indeed a countervailing influence against the homogenizing influence of capitalism on the labor process. We might even say that capitalism has a tendency to deskill/ homogenize most work, while making other work highly skilled. [get this right]
Again, the homogenization of labor time (or as the problem is usually referred to- the “simplification” of labor) is not a quantifiable phenomena. We can observe it qualitatively as a tendency under capitalism. But there really isn’t an objective way of measuring it.
Thus the labor theory of value has two “problems”: 1.value is the underlying context behind prices, yet its relationship to prices can’t be quantified. 2. value is made possible by the simplification/homogenization of labor, yet this simplification is not quantifiable.
These two “problems” have caused a ridiculous amount of debate among proponents and critics of the labor theory of value. After all, how do you prove that a theory is true if you can’t quantify it and test it? We claim that it is the underlying substance behind exchange yet it can’t be seen…. so how do we know it’s there? Is it just a matter of faith? Is the labor theory of value just a metaphysical concept?
Well… no. The labor theory of value is proven by asking the questions: “what does it help us explain?” The law of value helps us explain all sorts of things that bourgeois economic theory- with its narrow focus on supply and demand and personal utility- can’t. An analysis of economic issues using the labor theory of value starts to lead us in all sorts of directions not approached by any other theory. Pretty soon we find we have a much wider, systemic understanding of capitalism- and understanding that no other theory of exchange gives us.
This broader, more profound understanding only comes about through a thorough investigation of all of the ways the law of value plays itself out in society. It is too much to get into here, but many of my other videos will have to do with this. But I can attempt to summarize:
The labor theory of value is seeking to explain how the total economic product is produced and distributed. It is therefore a theory of social relations. It leads us to investigate the production of value BY workers FOR capitalists. This leads to an explanation of profit in the theory of exploitation. By investigating the way capitalists organize production in order to increase profits we come eventually to the theory of crisis. Along the way we learn about how wages are determined; what life is like as a worker, in and out of the workplace; the nature of capitalist competition, centralization and monopoly. This leads us to questions about the role of the state in maintaining capitalist accumulation and moderating crisis. We also start to learn about the way capitalism changes space through uneven geographical development, and time through its quest to shorten turnover times. In short, all of the social relations of society are laid bare before us, all because we asked “where does value come from?”
So you see, the proof is in application. And the application is quite extensive. That is why you should watch all of my videos.
Interesting… You obviously disagree with the Neoclasical School on valuation, but what about Carl Menger’s ideas? I they make much more sense that the Walrasian or Jevonians…
Also, isnt it un-scientific to say that certain economic theories are invalid just because they are “bourgeois”? I mean, neither Marx nor Engels (or David Ricardo one of their main influences)were exactly part of the proletariat, so what make their theories “un-bourgeois”, so to speak?
Comment by GokuEn — January 7, 2009 @ 1:12 pm |
A more sustained reading of and critique of various trends/persons in bourgeois economic thought is a goal of mine, but at this point in my studies/blogging I don’t feel prepared to offer more than general critiques of some of the general tenants of bourgeois economics.
I realize that grouping neo-classical, keynes, austrain, etc. tendencies into one group seems simplistic from the point of view of people who consider themselves part of one of these camps and define themselves in relation to the other tendencies. I also realize that the term “bourgeois” can sound more like an ideological dismissal than a academically descriptive term. But I defend the use of the term thus: bourgeois theories all share common traits, traits which Marx spent much time deconstructing and critiquing. He argued that bourgeois theories treated certain aspects of capitalism as universal aspects of all human societies. This a-historical perspective kept them from understanding the social relations of capitalism. I think that this critique still holds true for modern day bourgeois theories.
Comment by kapitalism101 — January 7, 2009 @ 5:16 pm |
Interesting… I can see that you reject the Neo-Classical theories on value. What about the theories of Carl Menger? I believe they are much more insightful than the Jevonian or Walrasian.
Secondly, isn’t it un-cientific to call treat certain economic teories as false because they are “bourgeois”? I mean, Marx, Engel (and David Ricardo, their major influence) weren’t exactly part of the proletariat neither…
Comment by GokuEn — January 7, 2009 @ 3:41 pm |
I do not mean offense, but the LTV has been discarded even by modern day Socialists (that now propose to create a society based on a government imitating a market on Walrasian Equilibrium). For example the LTV cannot explain why exchanges happen:
Two farmers meet and want to exchange tomatoes and lemons. The LTV would then say that the price (that is, the exchange rate) would be the Average Time needed to produce Tomato vs the time needed to produce a Lemon. Supposing that these averages are the same, then 1 Tomato = 1 Lemon. But if these objects are of equal value… why trade them? And if the trade is done, can you trade them back for the same ratio? If the value of tomatoes and lemons are the same, then there would be no real point in a trade.
But now let’s see another theory: the Subjective Theory of Value. Only the mind can place value on things, thus value is nothing but a mental link between objects and people. Such link is created when the object has a property to satisfy a human need or desire (“use value” or in modern terms, “utility”).
The law of Decreasing Marginal Utility explains that the tomato farmer is going to cherish his crop based on how much it will satisfy his needs. If he cultivated an abundant total of 20 tomatoes while his need is satisfied by only 5, then the 20th (the “marginal”) tomato is not going to have much value for him. If instead of 20 he cultivates 4 (due to a frost, for instance) the 4th tomato is going to be of incalculable value for him. Instead of relying on an average, the STV relies on calculating the relative importance of the last unit produced.
Let’s go back to our market where the farmers exchange their goods (lemons and tomatoes). Let’s assume that both the tomato producer and the lemon producer have satisfied their personal needs of their respective products. So now trade IS logical: the tomato-farmer has not satisfied his needs of lemons, so the value he places his last tomato is going to be much lesser than a unit of lemon, because his needs of lemon are not satisfied at all. The same thing happens to the lemon’s farmer, his last unit of lemon is much less valuable to him than a unit of tomato.
The difference between subjective values makes them trade the products they value less for products they value more. The “price” is set because both parties will try to maximize their utilities (satisfaction). In this case the price will be whatever number of tomatoes is needed to satisfy the lemon farmer vs the number of lemons needed to satisfy the tomato farmer.
Trade will stop when either parties (or both) believe that another trade will be unadvantageous: when, for example, the tomato farmer believes that receiving an additional lemon is not worth to lose his last unit of tomato.
Trade is then non-reversible since the new distribution is more advantageous than the former: the tomato farmer does not need or want an additional tomato back and the same for the lemon farmer. Utility has been maxed and it is fair enough to say that both parties are richer now (they lives are better off).
There is a nice, simple and deeper explanation of these principles on: http://home.sprynet.com/~owl1/economics.pdf
Comment by Anti-Swastika — January 11, 2009 @ 7:38 pm |
Anti-swastika,
No offense taken. Let me respond first by saying that the LTV has NOT been universally discarded by the left. There are a great deal of important thinkers who continue to work in the field of value theory and there has been a great surge of interest in value theory recently because of its ability to explain capitalist crisis better than bourgeois economic theory. The LTV has always been under attack from bourgeois economic theory ever since Karl Marx took the LTV to its logical conclusions, explaining that crisis and exploitation were inherent parts of the capitalist mode of production. It is true that some marxists have criticized the LTV as well over the years. But this is not a result of marginal utility theory offering a better explanation of value. Merely offering a different theory of value (and one which has many faults and explains a lot less, I might add) is not grounds for rejecting the LTV. The distancing of some on the left from the LTV is mostly related to the debate over the transformation problem, not due to that marginal utility. The transformation problem claims that the LTV is internally consistent, but this claim has been refuted by something called the temporal single system interpretation (TSSI). I know of no defense of the transformation problem in response to the TSSI. In terms of the transformation problem, you can see my video “What transformation problem?” in which I debunk the so-called “problem” of Marx’s transformation of values into prices of production.
So if both theories of value (labor and subjective) are internally consistent and logical, the question is which explains the world better.
First of all you are incorrect in saying that the LTV doesn’t explain exchange. The entire point of the labor theory of value is to explain exchange. Marx begins Capital by deducing value from an analysis of commodity exchange. When two commodities are exchanged for each other this implies some equivalence. We would not exchange things if they were not of the same value.
Using abstract examples of two farmers is a little problematic because the LTV specifically applies to the capitalist mode of production, not just to any two farmers anywhere in history. In capitalist commodity production is a production of exchange values, that is people don’t make commodities for their own consumption and just happen to have a little left over that they sell. Farmers often don’t eat any of the food they grow. Where I come from all the farmers grow corn, soybeans and tobacco and they sell 100% of their product. When people are producing for the purpose of exchange and they are buying the commodities they need all through the market we need some system of valuation which tells us how much time to spend working, and how to measure the products created by one person’s labor against the products created by another person’s labor.
Marginal utility does not explain the way in which social labor is apportioned between different tasks. And thus it can’t explain profit except to say that profit is merely a result of capitalists, workers and consumers having different subjective valuations of a commodity. But if this is the case then why do capitalists attempt to increase their profits by getting their workers to work more time for less money? Marginal utility theory cannot explain the ruthless drive for efficiency, the battle over time in the labor process. It also has no way of explaining the relation between machines and human labor in the labor process… the difference between automated tasks and human labor, the replacement of workers by machines, how this effects capital accumulation, etc.
Marginal utility doesn’t explain the over production of commodities. You say, for instance, that “trade will stop when either parties believe another trade will be disadvantageous.” But there is a chronic problem of overproduction and excess capacity in a capitalist society. Why is that the case if we only produce enough to satisfy utilities? According to the LTV, the point of capitalist production is not to make use values at all. It is an abstract cycle of accumulation whose only goal is the quantitative increase of value in the abstract: money. Thus capitalist chronically overproduce trying to get more value and they must always be looking for new ways to realize that value or utilize that excess capacity to stave off crisis.
Trade is non-reversible in a capitalist society because a capitalist only produces for exchange. The capitalist needs to turn those commodities into money (abstract value) so that he can begin production anew and make new commodities.
These are just some of the ways the LTV explains the dynamics of capitalism much better than marginal utility. Frankly, I think that marginal utility is juvenile and ridiculous in comparison to the depth and power of the LTV.
Comment by kapitalism101 — January 12, 2009 @ 7:24 pm |
The problem with Marx theorem starts when he relates an exchange to an equality when in reality it is a double inequality. If exchange was really a sum-zero situation, then trade would be pointless. Indeed just a little peek in the real world tell us that trading nations tend to grow faster than those who abstain.
Next, Marx asserts in the first volume that the identity behind the equality “must” be labor. But then in the third he asserts that prices are not nessesarly equal to the labor time spent. But he makes it clear: Value is a Sum-Zero Game so Total Prices = Total Value.
Lets imagine that I find a different identity, lets say weight. So things exchange when they are of equal wheight. In real life 1 ounce of gold will be traded by 100 of iron, but instead of discarding my theory I add them and guess what: Total Wheight = Total Prices!! The total weight of the total price 101 ounces corresponds exactly to the like total weight of 101 ounces incorporated
in the whole of the commodities. Is weight consequently the true standard by which the exchange relation of commodities is determined?
Marx acknowleged that factors other than labor made the prices always be different that labor-value, but why does he hold that labor IS the most important factor of all? Imagine a guy fires a canon and realizes that the damage caused by the bullet is directly related to the amount of powder in the weapon. Then a second one comes and makes him notice that the weight of the bullet, the length of the canon and the strenght of the wall he is aiming at also have an impact on the magnitude of the damage. The first one then clings to his first observation and concludes that the amount of powder is the sole determinant of the damage caused by the cannon and that all other factors are accidental and insignificant. Is he correct?
A capitalist is going to try to keep wages low to reduce costs. But he is not going to succeed because competition in the labor market: if his wages are too low, then his workers are going to go somewhere else. Bernstein, eventhough he was from the Left, realized that wages keep going up along with profits (!) how can that be explained? Because wages are set according to the Marginal Productivity of Labor. That is why wages increase in the capitalist system at a steady rate. As a matter of fact Bernstein also noticed that the Petit Bourgeoisie is actually increasing because of inventions (such as the internet) that help little businesses.
Is capitalism all about profits? Yes. But profits are made by increasing the utility of things. When you grab wood, make a table with it and sell it, the table is more expensive than the wood because it is more useful, not because I spent a week on the construction of it. The value is on the mind of my customers, not on the time I spent on my workshop. And yes, some businesses will create things nobody needs because they miscalculated the demand for their products (I am an Austrian, I DO NOT believe in Perfect Knowledge), these businesses will have to reduce their prices sometimes even below the production costs and if they make these mistakes often, they go bankrupt. Now I ask you, if the price is proportional to time, then why does these businesses fall? How it is possible that they lower prices below production costs? The LTV say that the products have value, so why does nobody wants these products?
The Labor Theory of Value has no room for the demand function. And does not give a satisfactory answer on why the same objects have different prices accordingly to the situation. Does an appartment cost the same in New York City than in Ohio? Does wood cost the same in a tropical rainforest than in a dessert? Why nobody buys ice in the Artic but a lot in California?
Why do different kind of wood have different prices? To chop any tree has the same average difficulty and yet the product of identical act have substantial differences on the value of the products.
Karl Marx dreamed of a world where egalitarianism would prevail. He used the economic principles of his time to prove his world view. Modern Marxist should imitate him. Many “Analitical Marxists” try to adjust Marx’s dream with the new knowledge we have in economics, political science and history. Instead clinging Marx teories, I applaud them because they have clinged to his egalitarian spirit which matters the more.
Comment by Anti-Swastika — January 12, 2009 @ 9:49 pm |
First of all, though I think there were some interesting things that came out of Analytical Marxism like some of Erik Olin Wright’s work on class, I think much of the project was a failure precisely because they tried to use the tools of bourgeois social science to address Marxist projects. In doing so they discovered that there is an inherent bias within the structure of bourgeois social science tools like methodological individualism, rational choice, subjective value, etc… that these theoretical models produced inherently non-marxist theory. In this way Analytical Marxism was more on an indictment of bourgeois social sciences than of traditional Marxism. If something isn’t broken why fix it?
Secondly to say that the LTV has no room for “demand function” is wrong. Like all classical economists, Marx’s LTV explains what lies behind “natural prices”. That is, once supply and demand have equalized we are still left with the question of specific exchange values between commodities: why is a car more expensive than a toothbrush? How do you explain that once the supply and demand for both commodities are in balance? The LTV recognizes that something must have a use-value in order to be exchanged. But subjective value theory has no way of determining the apportioning of social labor because there is no theoretical link between the utility of an object and the amount of labor that goes into producing it. Socially Necessary Labor Time is this link.
Thirdly in regards to the prices of production: Are you aware that Marx was writing his draft of Kapital vol.3 when we wrote vol.1? I just want to put aside the sometime made argument that the theory of prices of production was some last-minute addendum that he threw into vol.3 years later after we realized there was a mistake in vol1. Marx was aware of the difficulties that an average rate of profit posed to value theory b/c his predecessors had encountered the same problem and had not been able to resolve it. Marx is very clear in Kapital in the way he builds his argument. He doesn’t introduce notions interaction effects of value amongst capitalists until the 2rd volume. At the level of abstraction dealt with in the first volume (the factory floor, the labor-capital relation on the ground) value=prices is a sufficient assumption. Later in vol. 3, when he talks about competition, he introduces the more refined concept of prices of production.
To say that any physical trait can replace labor as a theory of value and still have the same explanatory power is also just wrong. How could you show a relation between weight and value when light things like a computer are often more expensive than heavy things like a bowling ball? Now I understand your point that the theory of the prices of production adjusts prices so that commodities don’t trade at their values… and so couldn’t we do the same with weight, just adjust weight value through a distribution of average profit… etc. (Is this the Bohm-Bawerk argument? I can’t remember off the top of my head, but it sounds like it and you said you were into the Austrians…) But this is also a misunderstanding of the prices of production. The prices of production don’t just erase one set of numbers and replace them with a different one. Prices of production don’t make all commodities have the same price. They merely redistribute the surplus value created in production in relation to the labor-machine ratio of the firm. The price of inputs are not changed but the total value of the products do increase. This would not happen with weight or any other physical property.
4th. This stuff about other factors changing prices and the gunfire analogy. This is also a misunderstanding of the theoretical structure of the argument. Marx endeavors first to create an abstract model of a capitalist economy in which there are no barriers to the free exchange of commodities and labor. He wanted to deduce the abstract laws of motion of capital before seeing how these laws operate in physical space, with different sate structures, different levels of technology, etc. Once we have an abstract picture of the laws of motion of capital we can then go to the real world and see how the historical forms of these structures evolve in specific spaces and times. And this is precisely what modern day marxists do when they analyze the world. I find many of these writers to be quite impressive in how well they can explain our current situation based on these models.
5th. Wages. Wages are determined by the level of class struggle, the prices of commodities, the demand and supply for labor power, etc. But the laws of capital compel capitalists to extract the most surplus value from their workers as they can. This is a basic observation of the theory of exploitation.
6th. Profits are not made by increasing the utility of things. I guess that would increase the demand, but then once the supply meets the demand you are not getting any more profit unless you can change the cost of inputs. Only one input can create more value than it costs. That is human labor. In terms of your example- why is wood less useful than a table? It seems to me that the demand for wood and tables is probably pretty consistent relative to their supplies. And in answer your question, just because something has value does not mean that that value will be realized in the market place. Marx calls this the “separation a purchase and a sale”, phenomenon made possible by the unique qualities of money. The need to realize the the value created in production is a major imperative for capitalists and is studied by Marxists.
7. Prices differ in different situation for a variety of reasons. Supply and demand can be out of balance causing things to trade above or below values. Monopoly pricing can effect price. Changing value of the money commodity or inflation can effect the appearance of price. Different costs of inputs or rents, etc. There are geographical differences in prices due to different values of labor power, transportation costs and differences in currencies. And finally rent varies in accordance with the way in which capital flows through land in the search for rents, investing in property, building, altering space. etc. All of these phenomenon are deeply important to marxist analysis of society. But we can’t examine them without this base theory of value- an abstract theory of the way capital behaves in the abstract. As you can see all these other factors deeply obscure the process of value creation so it is easy to see how some aspects of value theory are hard to accept for some. The questions you ask are good ones because you are asking value theory to explain more nuance than you think it is capable of. But I am saying that value theory does account for all of these things and it does so in a way that also explains the social relations of capitalism- something that marginal utility cannot. Marginal utility can only tell us about the relations between people and the commodities they consume. It cannot tell us about the social relations behind commodity exchange, relations ultimately of domination in the workplace.
Comment by kapitalism101 — January 12, 2009 @ 10:52 pm |
First of all, to reject theories because they are “bourgeois” is deeply unscientifical. David Ricardo and Adam Smith were bourgoies and yet they affected the theories of Marx. What you are basically saying is that any theory that does not carry a “Marxist” conclusion is wrong, even if professed by Marxist themselves. You speak of a bias against Marxism when the Marginal Revolutionaries never knew about him, in fact some of them wrote their theories bofore Marx, so to talk about a bias is ilogical.
You might say that modern economists respond to their respective class conciousness. Why didn’t Marx or Engels respond to theirs? Both of them were very bougeois (especially Engels) so why do their bourgeois perspectives are supperior that others?
What does exactly mean “Supply cancels Demand”? If you let go a baloon filled with helium, it will rise until a certain point… But does this mean that the forces on the baloon have “ceased to act”, or have they reached an equilibrium? If things have a “natural price” why do they change through time as their utility changes with it? For example a horseshoe today would not sell for as much as it would of had a 100 years ago, even if the average labor-time is equal (or even more, since creating a horseshoe today implies using techniques we are not familiar with). If you dont believe me, buy a new car and then try to sell it at the same price you bought it: you cant, because people are not going to value a brand new car as much as a used one, even if the labor embodied in the car has remained the same.
Why do wages keep rising? A modern wage is by far more that what it is nessesary for the worker to reproduce himself. And why does the middle class isnt shrinking or why instead of a trend towards monopolization we see more and more small scales industries arise? Even Leftist such as Bernstein had to recognize that the trend was opposite as what expected under Marx’s model. You have to realize that you are asking theories such as Marginal Utility to explain things under Marx’s model. Needless to say only Marx theories explain things in his own model.
I gave you a serie of examples of thing which show that differences in subjective valuation change prices of things. A car cost more to produce and sells for more than a thootbrush because the enterpreneur knows that people will pay more for a car than a thootbrush and thus a higher invertion will be justified. The trick to make a profit is to take things that nobody whants or needs (such as a pile of metal) and to transform it into thing people are willing to pay (such as a car).
And finally, what makes you think that an exchange is an equality? Almost by definition, they have to be double inequalities because if both parties dont think they are better off at the end, exchange just wont happen (see my example with the lemon/tomato farmers).
Comment by Anti-Swastika — January 13, 2009 @ 12:14 am |
In regards to my comments about Analytical Marxism and bourgeois theory. When one approaches a theoretical task one has to be very conscious of the assumptions built into the methodology. I think that what differentiates modern day bourgeois economic theory from marxist theory is, beyond the conclusions, these basic assumptions. When one adapts theoretical tools from a different theoretical perspective this can’t be done hap-hazardly. This is why I say the Analytical marxist experiment is interesting because of the way it highlights these differences and shows that adopting other methodologies produces different results. The label “bourgeois” theory does not refer to the class background of individual theorists. It refers to the sort of assumptions behind and conclusions of the theory. Saying there are biases in a theory doesn’t mean that these theories were crafted in direct response to Marx. It means that there are certain assumptions about the world that come from our experience of living in a capitalist society- things we don’t question because they are so much the part of the structure of our lives. It was a great mission of Marx to deconstruct these “fetishes” and to explain capitalism from outside of itself.
By Supply and Demand canceling each other out: There is a sudden rush of supply of pencils but not enough demand. Pencils can’t be sold. Price drops below values. So pencil production adjusts. Prices equalize. Now- why is a pencil cheaper than a car? The answer “because people want cars more?” is a cop out. It’s a non answer. It doesn’t explain price- it just says that whatever price is is that way because that must be what people wanted. And if price changes that means that utilities must have changed. How convenient! Is it just a coincidence that cars take a much more complex labor process than a pencil? And the fact that these differences in labor times tend to correspond to differences prices is just a coincidence?
Why does price change over time? Because the labor process changes all the time becoming more efficient, changing the socially necessary labor time. Your horseshoe example doesn’t make any sense. Why would a horseshoe sell for less now? Even by your own theoretical perspective if the demand is less it should cost more! In terms of the market for used goods, this is entirely different than prices for things that are made for exchange. Here we have issues of devaluation- for instance if the price of cars are falling due to more efficient production then the socially necessary labor time of the old car changes. More importantly, machines wear out over the course of their lifetime meaning- or another way to say this is that the labor time embodied in a car is consumed over a longer period of time. So an old car has much less value in it. The only reason we can afford to pay so much for a car is that the value is consumed so slowly.
Why do wages keep rising? Well real wages in the US have been stagnant for the last 30 years according to every source I’ve heard. So I’m curious as to what you mean by that. Regardless Marx sees wages as determined by the cost of reproducing the worker, the power of labor relative to capital, etc. So when unions are strong they can bargain higher wages like they did in the US in the 40’s and 50’s. But the interest of the capitalist class is usually to suppress wages in order to raise profit. Of course during the 50’s and 60’s many industrialists utilized Ford’s technique of fighting the demand gap problem by paying a higher wage. So this too can be a force for raising wages, though this sort of Keynesian thinking is not popular today.
Just selling something that people want doesn’t make a profit. You have to receive more money than it costs you to make. If all commodities are just a mark up above price than no commodities are a mark up above price. There is an inherent tautology in that sort of argument.
By definition exchange implies equality. People wouldn’t exchange two things if they were of different values. Would you trade a car for pencil? What if you really wanted a pencil and you didn’t like your car? Wouldn’t you rather trade it for something a car is worth?
Comment by kapitalism101 — January 13, 2009 @ 3:04 am |
Would a pencil ever cost more than a car? No. But it is because no one is willing to pay an extravagant amount of money for something that has such little utility. No, it is no coincidence that more elaborate things have higher prices. But it is not a coincidence either that these things serve to much elaborate tasks. People are willing to spend a lot more resources and time into creating cars because they are concious of the great utility of the car.
What I am saying is that labor by itself cannot “create” value, labor must be guided by reason because all labor to be productive has to result in something of higher utility than the input.
I intendended my car example as this: Imagine you buy a car, then drive it to the next block and try to sell it for the same price: people will offer you a lower price because they have been biased (your car has been used). BUT if you drive it to a place where there is no way to acquire that car or you make a cool improvement on it, then you could sell it at a higher price than what you bought it. The change in price is not proportional to amount of new labor added but on how you raised the utility of the car. If instead you made a bad modification on it (for instance, you painted it with a horrible color) then the price will sink even lower despite the labor added to the car.
Horseshoes in the past were much more valuable because humanity depended on horses for transportation. Today they are only lucky charms.
Finally I must stress my point: exchange is a double inequality. It only happens if I place more value on the thing you have than on the thing I have. If both things had the same value to me, I would not exchange them.
Comment by Anti-Swastika — January 13, 2009 @ 3:56 am |
I agree with all of Robin’s points. Furthermore: to say that labor must be productive of something of higher utility than the input doesn’t make sense. To the capitalist the raw material and labor has just as much utility as the finished commodity does to the consumer. And to say that cars are more expensive than pencils because people want cars more is circular logic! Let me demonstrate this circularity to be clear:
Q: What explains price?
A: The marginal utility of a commodity.
Q: what determines marginal utility?
A: subjective psychology.
Q: How can subjective psychology be quantified?
A: In price.
Therefore price is whatever price is. Marginal utility simply takes price as given refusing to look behind it for any deeper social meaning. It’s a “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain” sort of argument.
With your car examples: if you take a car to a place where cars aren’t as available you can sell it for a higher price for two reasons. One, you transported the car across space, performing labor which added value to the car. Two, you can take advantage of asymmetries in the market and receive monopoly prices if nobody else is selling cars in that area. However if you continued to do this other competitors would enter the region selling cars too and soon your monopoly prices would be whittled back down- supply and demand would balance each other out and we would be left wondering what determines price.
If you drive a car a block and sell it for less you would be a big idiot. But, OK let’s say you were a big idiot and wanted to do this. Why would the price be lower? Well, because people would assume that there was some sort of wear and tear on the car- that it had been devalued like I explained earlier. You also wouldn’t be selling it with a warranty.
If you painted it an ugly color that nobody like then that implies that more labor would be required to paint it back to it’s original color, hence effectively raising the price.
If you added “cool improvements” to raise the price that OBVIOUSLY is an expenditure of more labor.
I think you are digging yourself into a hole with the horseshoe example. People still raise horses and they still buy horseshoes. The demand for them is certainly less but so is the supply. If the price of horseshoes has changed it would be the result of changes in the efficiency in the labor process that makes them.
If exchange is only a double inequality- how come people don’t trade pencils for cars? I don’t like cars, I don’t want to own one. I use pencils all the time. If someone gave me a car as a gift does this mean I should trade it for a pencil?
Comment by kapitalism101 — January 13, 2009 @ 5:43 pm |
Hi
I have some problems with Anti-swastika´s observations. Let me explain.
Firstly about the horseshoes. This doesnt invalidate the LTV. The fact that there has been a decline in the demand for horseshoes means simply that the production of horseshoes will likewise fall until a new price equilibrium is established. I might be misreading AS but s/he seems to be suggesting the price of horseshoes will just continue falling becuase the demand for demand for horseshoes has fallen away. At some point, supply will fall to a level at which the price of horseshoes will stabilise. Afterall, a firm producing horseshoes has to make a profit. Even though we no longer use hourse as our primary means of transport there are still plenty of horses around! And they need horseshoes. But you cannot sell horsehoes below what it costs to produce them. And this is where the LTV comes into the picture
One might say the same thing of the example of pens and cars. According to AS cars have a higher price because they have a higher utility. But suppose the market for cars was seriously depressed and the market for pens was extremely bouyant. Is it realistically conceivable that the price of a pen might approach and even surpass that of car in these circumstances. If not why not?
Secondly, AS states “What I am saying is that labor by itself cannot “create” value, labor must be guided by reason because all labor to be productive has to result in something of higher utility than the input”. But what is the relation between utility and price. Utility in marginalist economics is a basically subjective concept. The marginal utility of a four square meal to a beggar without the wherewithal – money – to buy a meal may be very great indeed but without money or effective demand out beggar cannot have any influence on price. This is only an extreme example to illustrate a basic point but it applies to a large number of things most of us cannot afford becuase we havenet got the means to pay for them however much we may desrie them. Utility thus does not seem to be a very useful guide to price.
There also seems to be a basic contradiction in asserting that price reflects utility which is subjective when in fact what influences the prices of commodities is very much of an objective nature. Market demand is afterall an aggregative concept derived from a population of consumers amongst whom there may be vastly different perceptions of the utility of the commodity in question. The supply of the commodity in question is likewise and obviously, an objective matter.
It seems to me that the “transformation problem” is really one that falls on the marginalist theory rather than the LTV which in any case never claimed that commodities sell at their value in practice
Finally the
Comment by robin — January 13, 2009 @ 12:50 pm |
“Would a pencil ever cost more than a car? No. But it is because no one is willing to pay an extravagant amount of money for something that has such little utility”
Be that as it may this in no ways rules out the fact that a pencil costs far less than a car because the amount of labour required to produce it is far less. But you have not answered my point about the beggar and the utility he places on a good meal. When he doesnt have the wherewithal to influence price – money – how can this utility correlate with price of a good meal? The same goes for all those things most of us simply cannot afford to buy however much we may desire them
“Horseshoes in the past were much more valuable because humanity depended on horses for transportation. Today they are only lucky charms.” Valuable in what sense? More horses meant that demand for horsehoes was that much greater. But so would have have been the supply of such horseshoes. Again you dont explain how a supplier of horseshoes could continue in business if he was not able to sell his horseshoes at a price that exceeded his costs of production.
“Finally I must stress my point: exchange is a double inequality. It only happens if I place more value on the thing you have than on the thing I have. If both things had the same value to me, I would not exchange them. If the pencil has a property that would make happier than the car (maybe it was Cervantes pencil!) then yes, I would trade them.”
Once again you are confusing exchange value and use value. If you have an apple and wanted to exchange it for something else of course you would not want to exchange with another apple. What would be the point? You would want something different , for example an orange. That is why you would place a higher subjective value on an orange than an apple at that point in time while the person you want to swap your your apple with might conversely value an apple over the orange. But this does not mean their exchange value cannot possibly be the same, does it?
Comment by robin — January 13, 2009 @ 5:37 pm |
Yep, Paul Mattick said that marginal utility “…obviously rested on circular reasoning. Although it tried to explain prices, prices were necessary to explain marginal utility.” (http://www.marxists.org/archive/mattick-paul/1977/inflation/ch03.htm)
I tried to get that into the Wikipedia article on Marginal Utility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_utility) but the article “owner” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OWN ), SlamDiego (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SlamDiego ), an “Austrian economist,” exercised his monopoly of force (*giggle*) and removed it (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Marginal_utility&diff=266271480&oldid=266155224).
Comment by wage-slave — March 1, 2009 @ 12:18 pm |
Ugh, sorry for the broken URLs. Remove the trailing parenthesis after opening them.
Comment by wage-slave — March 1, 2009 @ 12:20 pm |
Excellent videos, but I still do not understand how exchange value is created only through human labor. Say someone created a solar powered mechanical factory that could perform maintenance on itself. Wouldn’t the products of such a factory have zero exchange value according to LTV? Yet, since the products of the factory are scarce, and people have a demand for the products (whatever they are) they would still pay money for the products. How does LTV account for this? Thanks.
Comment by rocketfish — July 2, 2009 @ 11:55 pm |
A fully mechanized factory is built in the future. It is the only factory selling said commodity and thus can charge monopoly prices. The high profit ratio of that firm attracts other capitalists to invest in the same industry. Now there is competition. Monopoly pricing dissolves into competitive price cutting. Once the initial investment in the factory has been paid off (or even before) the price cutting intensifies cutting into profits. Cost lowers. If enough such factories were built the cost would move to zero.
Think of the difference between a laundromat and a personally owned washing machine. Laundromat charges interest on renting their machine. It’s like renting a house from a landlord. Value is transferred between parties but no value is created by either. If you own your own washing machine then the task of doing laundry costs nothing. You wouldn’t pay some one to do you laundry because you can do it without any labor at all at home.
There are all sorts of relations in a capitalist society that are mediated by the form of value. Value occurs simply because the exchange of commodities is the only way of apportioning the various parts of the social labor process. But the direct relation “labor time=value” is mediated by many other relationships within our society: the labor-capital relationship, the capital-capital relation (monopoly pricing, etc.) and all the distortions created by credit, rent and interest.
Comment by kapitalism101 — July 3, 2009 @ 2:10 am |
So capitalism is the way to go then, right? In the long run it lowers a commodity’s value to the point that it becomes abundant, like air. A good example would be computers. $1 could buy a single transistor in 1968 and now it buys about 10 million. It brought computers to the masses, which allowed anyone to be a photographer, musician, broadcaster (eg youtube & podcasts) connect with people across the globe, etc. How is this bad?
It would be really cool if you could make some videos explaining marxism so it could be compared with capitalism. Thanks!
Comment by rocketfish — July 3, 2009 @ 3:55 pm |
Yes capitalism reduces the value of commodities overtime by increasing the social productivity of labor. At the same time it is a social system based on fundamental class antagonisms that create drastic inequalities in wealth, violent fluctuations in the flow of capital through geographical space, imperialism and economic crisis. Even though commodity prices have been falling, real incomes have remained the same or fallen in the last 30 years while the profits of the rich have soared. The working class hasn’t actually had enough income to buy back the products of their social labor and have had to resort to the credit system in order to prop up the economy.
One doesn’t compare marxism and capitalism. That would be like comparing science with gravity or music theory with quarter notes. Marxism is a radical study of the social relations between people in a capitalist society and the movement of history. Marxism is not an alternative economic system. It is a method of inquiry.
Comment by kapitalism101 — July 4, 2009 @ 4:36 pm |
Sorry for the belated post, but I wanted to point out that one Marxist Klaus Hagendorf has actually formulated the labour theory of value in marginalist/neoclassical terms:
http://eurodos.free.fr/mime/Hagendorf%202008%20-%20The%20Labour%20Theory%20of%20Value%20and%20Economic%20Crisis.pdf
http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/10202/1/MPRA_paper_10202.pdf
Whether this economist is a marginalist himself or not is irrelevant, since the main point he made is that new bourgeois economic theories also have political implications.
Comment by Jacob Richter — October 26, 2009 @ 1:02 am |
When we’re proving equilibrium price comes down to LTV, how do we quantify supply and demand to be able to accurately assert what is equilibrium and that particular commodities are in it…
Comment by Geoff Taylor — November 2, 2009 @ 4:30 am |
nevermind, that was sort of answered on the FRP page…
Comment by Geoff Taylor — November 3, 2009 @ 7:23 pm |
My next concern is with the rejection of LTV in neo-classical studies, is it primarily because it validates exploitation?
or are there many more implications that must be taken if one realizes LTV? I’m fairly certain i could convince someone of the LTV, but what is the next step in recognition from there?
Comment by Geoff Taylor — November 3, 2009 @ 7:58 pm |
After Marx developed the LTV in a direction which brought out the social antagonisms of capitalism- that it is founded on exploitation and prone to instability and crisis- bourgeois abandoned value theory altogether and went off in a entirely different direction. The starting point was the idea that value is purely subjective. This is still the view of the Austrian school which you will run into all over the internet. They are like cockroaches. Marshall advanced a less extreme version of this psychological theory of value which, contrary to the Australians, acknowledges some sort of influence of supply on prices. But the entire structure of neo-classical econ came to just take price as a given, ignoring the way in which price coordinates and represents social relations between producers. The primary obstacle, I think, in talking about the LTV to people online is this ideological obsession with the idea that value is purely subjective- that subjective decisions we make a consumers is somehow the only relevant perspective when examining the way a global division of labor is organized.
In the academy the LTV has been dismissed primarily on the grounds of the so-called “transformation problem” (see my video). But probably the retreat of Marx in the academy is more a result of funding and politics than any theoretical victories on the part of bourgeois theory.
Comment by kapitalism101 — November 4, 2009 @ 2:34 am |
Australians too?
besides this tautology:
“Q: What explains price?
A: The marginal utility of a commodity.
Q: what determines marginal utility?
A: subjective psychology.
Q: How can subjective psychology be quantified?
A: In price.”
the argument they make is usually mixing up labor time and socially necessary labor time and then back to using supply and demand as ultimate determinants of price…what other criticisms do they usually make?
recognition of finite resources at the very least should be capable of bursting some of this nonsense. I’ve noticed a disconnect to be able to articulate and understand in between these paradigms, both with some posts on your site, and in my own personal attempts when TRYING to understand Marxism, it doesn’t help that i’ve been brainwashed in the neo-classical tradition.
If i was debating or giving a speech (which i am in a couple weeks) what is the next quickest thing to articulate if i’ve just hit on the LTV?
Comment by Geoff Taylor — November 4, 2009 @ 3:24 am
I guess that depends on what you are speaking/debating about…
There is a gap between the sort of simplistic arguments made by cyber-Austrians and the slightly more interesting criticisms from Bohm-Bawerk. I don’t think the Austrian critique of Marx has advanced much since Bohm-Bawerk. Bohm-Bawerk’s main critique was of the theory of prices of production, but that is usually too complex to boil into simple talking points so online versions make more simplistic arguments that, as you said, usually focus on ignoring socially necessary labor time, positing subjective valuation as an apriori fact, and listing examples of non-reproducible commodities.
Comment by kapitalism101 — November 4, 2009 @ 11:06 am